TL;DR
Iconic Graphic Novels
Several graphic novels are frequently cited as the best of all time due to their storytelling, depth, and impact on the medium. "Watchmen" by Alan Moore is often praised for its complexity and how it uses the comics medium to convey deep themes [2:5]
[3:7]. "The Sandman" by Neil Gaiman is another highly acclaimed work, known for its intricate plotlines and exploration of various aspects of the human experience
[1:2]
[3:1].
Personal Favorites
While some graphic novels are universally acclaimed, personal favorites can vary widely. Many readers have expressed a strong connection to "Saga" by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples, citing it as a top choice for its compelling narrative and characters [1:4]. "Blankets" by Craig Thompson is also mentioned as a deeply touching story that resonates with readers on a personal level
[1:6]
[4:2].
Critically Acclaimed Series
Beyond individual graphic novels, several series have earned a place among the best in the genre. "Y: The Last Man" and "Preacher" are noted for their unique storytelling and ability to tackle complex themes [1:3]
[2:5]. Additionally, "Swamp Thing" by Alan Moore is recognized for its atmospheric art and engaging narrative
[3:3]
[5:7].
Diverse Picks
Readers also appreciate graphic novels that offer diverse perspectives and styles. Works like "Maus" by Art Spiegelman provide historical insight through the graphic novel format [4:2]. Other notable mentions include "V for Vendetta" by Moore/Lloyd and "Sin City" by Frank Miller, which showcase different artistic approaches and storytelling techniques
[2:5]
[4:5].
Recommendations Beyond the Discussions
If you're exploring graphic novels beyond these recommendations, consider titles such as "Persepolis" by Marjane Satrapi for its autobiographical narrative and cultural insights, or "Bone" by Jeff Smith for its whimsical yet profound storytelling. These works expand the boundaries of what graphic novels can achieve in terms of both art and narrative.
Not the most influential or the most critically acclaimed. What is your personal favourite?
Sandman, the most epic story in the comic medium.
+1 for The Sandman as well.
I used to say my favorite comic of all time was Watchmen by Alan Moore, but I'm currently re-reading The Sandman (again) and I think it just shot up to my number one spot.
Sandman encompasses a good deal of the human experience. Since it's really a vignette covering multiple stories across thousands of years, it has it all: Adventure, fantasy, horror, romance, coming-of-age, the universal experience of coming to terms with the inevitability of change...
Definitely one of the best comics I've ever read.
The Sandman is amazing. The way everything is woven together. The characters, plotlines, myth and fact. I sometimes forget Shakespeare wasn't actually visited by Dream before performing before the Fae. The Endless seem so... possible isn a behind the scenes way.
Any other fans should try the Audible version. It's a radio-play of the comic. I can picture actual panels while listening, it's so true to the source.
My first introduction was Y: The Last Man, which I thought was amazing. I followed it up with Paper Girls and was disappointed with it. Saga is on my list, but just noticed he started writing the second half of the story so I'll wait until it's all out there to marathon through.
Came here to say this. Saga. By far. And I love Sandman and Transmetropolitan and Irredeemable and Preacher and Y: The Last Man and Planetary.
But if I could only have one for the rest of my life, it would be Saga.
So happy to see Blankets. I was a lonely nerd in the library 21 years ago looking at graphic novels. There I saw the biggest "comic" id ever seen. I cracked it to the center read two pages then checked it out. Read it in one sitting. I've bought it 3x in my life because I keep gifting it. I found it at just the right age dealing with my own turn to atheism and love.
Yup. I donate copies of volume 1 & 2 to my local free library. It's always gone when I get back. Most touching graphic novel of all time.
East of West and John Hickman are treasures
Comics wise or just all his stuff? Yes I don’t think he ever reached the heights in terms of comics again, but ocean at the end of the lane and the graveyard book are both really really really fucking good.
Also while it isn’t sandman level, the graveyard book graphic novel adaptation is awesome.
I’ll have to say invincible by kirkman
I picked up the 3 Compendiums at my library, and could not put them down. I read 15 years of comics in a month.
I have read Blankets, it didn’t grab me when I read it. I will reread if it’s up there with Maus for you.
Given the outpouring of love 😂 that my previous post on overhyped graphic novels received.. These are the ones that, in my opinion, actually earn their GOAT level reputations (in no particular order): 1. Watchmen – I recently reread it: Still unmatched in how it weaponizes the comics medium itself. 2. Daytripper – A meditation on life, family, and death that never feels heavy. Gentle and deep. 3. Preacher – Blasphemous, and yet surprisingly justifiable.. it feels like it accomplished something unthinkable 4. Saga – Bold and emotionally unpredictable, as far as scifi drama goes it’s a true modern masterpiece. 5. Sweet Tooth – Quiet, weird, and full of grace in a way only Lemire can do 6. Sin City – Razor-sharp pacing and mood, and some of the most epic characters in comics ever 7. Transmetropolitan – Satirical, anarchic, and disturbingly relevant, amazing foresight of modern days politics 8. Punk Rock Jesus – Another story full of anti-establishment rage that actually delivers a message 9. Planetary – A genre-bending love letter to pop culture and comics 10. The Incal – Wild, psychedelic sci-fi that’s still influencing creators decades later! 11. Paper Girls – Genre-flipping, kinetic, and emotionally fulfilling. 12. Chew – Totally absurd, but the execution is consistently funny, and fresh. Possibly the most original story premise I’ve ever read 13. Invincible – Over-the-top and unafraid to evolve. Still the only actual superhero comic I ever managed to get sucked into! 14. Monsters – Visually masterful, psychologically devastating, and criminally under-discussed. The only graphic novel that ever made me sick to the stomach to the point of getting noscius. 15. East of West – A genre-defying epic that I couldn’t simply put down. Supreme ending.
Let me know what are your favorite reads of all time that you think should get more talk!
Methodology: I focus on frequently recommended titles, based on popular lists such as this sub's top 100 or ranker top 100. Note: I don't read Marvel/DC capes, so this is only for non-superhero/non–Big2 titles!
Some good picks, some I've not read.
I'd include:
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen - I love how it expanded from a Victorian lit Avengers to full bonkers Alan Moore.
Scalped - I re-read this recently. Absolutely love it, the art is fantastic and although you kind kind of tell Jason Aaron didn't know how it was going to end when he started it, it's like a top notch HBO crime drama.
Fury: My War Gone By - Garth Ennis and Goran Parlov are a great pairing, this story shows them both at their best.
I feel that Scalped doesn’t get nearly enough praise and talk as it should, it’s in my next list of “Criminally Underrated” titles!
That “improv” feeling is the best part about Scalped - he just set these characters loose and writes down what happens
So nice to see Enigma on the list. Love that series. Had a big impact on me when the issues were coming out when I was in high school. Read it again about 5 years ago and it really holds up well. One of Milligan’s best.
Enigma will be in my underrated list! It’s phenomenal ma rarely talked about!
The fact Invincible is the only Superhero comic they could read says it all really. But everyone gets an opinion.
Because you don’t rate Invincible? Or because you have others you recommend more?
Hard agreement. It’s actually the only signed comic or graphic novel that I own, via an odd series of events that originated with my worship of it.
They’ve been collected in many different ways, so look for the following specific stories within whatever collections are available to you.
“Sopa de Gran Pena (Heartbreak Soup)” is the easy choice for Gilbert.
Jaime’s a little more complicated. His earliest Locas stories are rather primordial and superficially crude (even though his genius is already burbling furiously). So I always tell people to start with “100 Rooms”. It’s still a little crude-looking (primarily because of the lettering), but it’ll warm you up sufficiently for “Las Mujeres Perdidas (The Lost Women)”, which, if you ask me, is where Locas just takes off and soars.
Yep. Collected edition of the first two and Black Dossier by DC, the rest by Knockabout. Amazon have them all available, as do other less monomaniacal booksellers I'm sure.
I like to start from the beginning.. so "Maggie the Mechanic" for Jaime... and "Heartbreak Soup" for Gilbert. Each of their decades long ongoing stories are stunningly (all the adjectives you can think of).. its a massive undertaking, but well worth the time.
I’m just curious to know that if you could recommend only one comic book what would it be?
Edit: I didn’t expect so many people to respond lol. Thank you everyone for these recommendations :)
Now I and many others have a plethora of comics to choose from 🙏
The Sandman by Neil Gaiman is one of the best pieces of literature I’ve ever read. Lucifer by Mike Carey is also right there.
But what I would recommend is Avengers and New Avengers by Jonathan Hickman, it is the quintessential modern super hero epic. His Secret Wars is my favorite Marvel event.
My thoughts exactly! Lucifer is my top non hero book and Hickman's avengers/new avengers is my top hero book.
Hellblazer and Hickman's fantastic four stuff are just a hair below those.
And the Sandman is just a overall incredible read.
Sandman is my favorite thing in any media. Oh, check out Hickman’s FF run if you haven’t, IMO it is even better than his Avengers work.
Sandman is my favorite comic too, and the Brief Lives arc especially is one of the most beautiful and heartbreaking stories I’ve ever read
One of my female friends was dating an odd upperclassman back when we were in high school, and (knowing that I was buying XBooks on a weekly basis) she told me I should read Sandman — so at my next visit to my local comic book store I grabbed the current issue and brought it with all of my usual fare up to the register.
Turns out it was the first issue of Brief Lives, and when I got to the counter the employee (who knew me as a regular) got very excited for me when he saw I was buying it. Changed everything for me.
It's gotta be Swamp Thing by Alan Moore. Even thinking about it gave me chills.
YES. Specifically, the Annual where he goes to find Abby's soul.
The Spectre by John Ostrander.
That run had everything from horror to epic battles to social commentary to personal drama. And it had a solid beginning and end so very easy to get into for new readers. Everything about Spectre and Jim Corrigan was explained well.
Plus, the covers were absolutely gorgeous and the art was very atmospheric.
The only DC I've read in the past decade was Gotham By Midnight, and I LOVED it. Looks like I've got some more reading to do.
Cliche to say but it's still watchmen
Same! I was like, why do I feel like this towards a fictional character, because Neil Gaiman is a master writer. Vol. 7-10 are so damn good.
Definitely my fave Batman story. I wish I could find the Absolute Edition!
I’m a sucker for lists. What are your top 5 favourites?
My all-time favorites. Only Fables is still going.
Would you recommend that Daredevil arc to people who don't like Marvel? I've tried so much Marvel and DC and there's so little that I really like. I'm a fan of the others you mentioned, so tempted to give it a go.
Also is it easily collected? How many volumes?
Would you recommend that Daredevil arc to people who don't like Marvel?
If you're going to read DD, you should read Frank Miller's. It's the best Daredevil books there are.
Depends why you don't like Marvel. I know next to nothing about this series but I am a Bendis fan. I absolutely loved it. It's less like a superhero book and more just a great dramatic thriller, exceptionally well written and plotted and fairly self-contained if you have the background.
Hell yeah Fables! What an epic ride that series was.
Alan Moore‘s run on Swamp Thing
Sandman series by Neil Gaiman
Watchmen by Alan Moore
Arkham Asylum by Grant Morrison
Sin City by Frank Miller
Dude I like western authors but a lot of them follow a specific format, have read Gaiman, Moore and am a big fan of their wok. Watchmen is something I worship specially. But I also read asian graphics, the format dissapears here in most places I find a "distorted' yet well presented thematic and atmosphere heavy storyline and the reader is expected to make sense of things only in the end. So if you're a fan of Moore ,you should check out works like Kemtaro miuras Berserk, Monster etc. I think u guys will also find them of interest.
I have seen Invincible recommended on like 7 different sub-reddit's in the last 20 minutes. Is it really that good?
Many people, myself included, think it's fantastic. It's one of the only superhero stories I've enjoyed. I was totally engaged in the story for the entire 183 (I think) issues.
But the reason you keep hearing about it isn't that it's the best ever or anything (though of course it will be some people's absolute favourite) but because the second season of the very well-recieved animated series is soon to start releasing.
I absolutely love Northlanders. The first arc is fucking amazing. The rest of them aren't as awesome, but are still really really good (Siege of Paris is probably my second fave)
In no particular order because I’m not in a position to do that right now: (adding the format in which I read them)
Black Hammer (series - Library editions)
Eight Billion Genies (12 issue hardcover)
Gideon Falls (series - two hardcovers)
Promethea ( series - three hardcovers)
The Human Target (series - two hardcovers)
Most of these are more recent reads, I’m sure my list would be different a few months from now.
I kept my Invincible off my list specifically for that reason, to me graphic novels kind of excludes continuous multi-arc stories, although Invincible has been collected as a series of graphic novels so I suppose it could technically count.
Best Graphic Novel: Batman: Arkham Asylum/Silver Surfer: Requiem
Best Runs: Saga of the Swamp Thing/Brian Micheal Bendis’s Daredevil
Best Story: Kingdom Come/Time Runs Out & Secret Wars (2015)
Hickman's Marvel Epic from Secret Warriors through Secret Wars
I loved his Fantastic Four run
Yes! "To me... my Galactus!"
I revisit the Annihilation series from marvel yearly
Ooo I forgot about Annihilation. That whole era of Marvel Cosmic was amazing!
Reading for first time rn!
Runs?
Uncanny X-Men/X-Men by Chris Claremont
Fantastic Four by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby
Daredevil by Frank Miller
Captain America by Ed Brubaker
Fantastic Four by John Byrne
The Spirit by Will Eisner
Police Comics, with Jack Cole
Swamp Thing by Alan Moore
JLI/JLE by Kieth Giffen
Sandman by Neil Gaiman
You are old. I agree with most of these.
DC:
Geoff John’s/Peter Tomasi’s Green Lantern/Green Lantern Corps
Green Lantern/ Green Arrow By Dennis O’Neil
Tales of the Green Lantern Corps
Justice League: Generation Lost
DC: The New Frontier
Icon-everything of its original run that’s on DCUI is super good (it’s owned by DC)
Injustice
Marvel:
Frank Miller’s Daredevil (it’s the only Marvel book I’ve read. I really like it though)
Others:
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Tom Waltz
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird
Mike Mignola’s Hellboy
Stan Sakai’s Usagi Yojimbo
By Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons!
Widely considered to be one of the greatest stories in comics history!
A stunning tale of triumph and tragedy!
Many people have given better reviews of this series than I could ever hope to!
Suffice to say, this set the bar for everything that came after!
Also you should pick up the trade or hardcover so that you don't damage your individual issues!
Wonderful. A vast and insidious conspiracy.
It really makes you think!
its hard not to own this in all formats.
Beautiful
It sure is
I had this original trade (first printing). A friend asked to borrow it, and I gently reminded her how this was an important book. She was cute and flirted with me a bit, and I loaned it out. Came back with a coffee cup mug stain on the cover and internal damage. She bought me a replacement that was a current printing.
We are not friends anymore.
Hey guys,
I've recently picked up Grant Morrison's 'SuperGods' and Alan Moore's 'Illuminations' short stories book. I was wondering if anyone has anymore reccomendations on novels from comic book authors? I know there are a few novelisations of famous Superman and Batman stories, but I'm more referring to unique stories written to be a novel.
Also, no Neil Gaiman. I don't know the opinion of him on this sub, but I have sworn off him.
This is the right answer. PAD was a talented and prolific novelist besides being an excellent comic writer.
Greg Rucka is a solid novelist. His Batman: No Man's Land novelization was quite good.
Hell yeah, he's who came to my mind. I picked No Man's Land up on a whim before I even started reading comics. Such a grim nightmare of a book, but so great.
I was going to mention Rucka as well. His No Man’s Land novelization was fantastic. The Atticus Kodiak and Jad Bell books are good too. I still need to read Queen & Country
Imzadi was great. Been a long time since I read it.
His (Rucka) prose tie-ins to the Queen and Country series are also great and give more depth to the characters.
Sir Apropos of Nothing (and it‘s sequels) is great. The last one crushed my soul for a long time.
RIP, Peter, nothing but love from me.
Never read them but Mike Carey’s novels are supposed to be good.
I like his Felix Castor novels. They are a take on a John Constantine-like occult detective. Pretty entertaining.
His books “Oracle Year” and “Anyone” are also absolutely stellar novels I was unable to put down. Each took me less than 5-10 days to complete because they both were such page-turners.
I bought his newest one “The Endless Vessel” the day it was released simply for how amazing his track record is (in both mediums!) but unfortunately haven’t had time to read it yet.
His book, The Girl with All the Gifts, is one of the most original zombie books I've ever read.
Yep! His Star Trek New Frontier series is a lot of fun, too.
Loads of fun! A clever, intricate plot worthy of the original film. You're able to see how Tarantino thought about the language and imagery too. Really nicely put together. Sure a film would have been awesome. But this still stands on its own. Definitely, undoubtedly worth looking into if you've not already done so!
I bought it back when or was being published monthly. Ugh…. It’s basically Django Unchained remade with Zorro instead of Schultz. Erasing a bit Django’s independence he had earned in the movie, and getting him through a similar arc again. TBH I haven’t read it since (so obviously it’s been a while), but that is what I remember from it
It's worth mentioning that the whole Zorror run up to this event is totally kick ass and worth reading since >!Zorro dies in this!<
I think Matt Wagner was more responsible for the voice in that series. Tarantino offered up the plot but didn’t really write it. Cool series, but I wouldn’t say Tarantino wrote it.
One cool thing about the series, that at least in the single issues, they provide a track list for a soundtrack if you want to cobble together a playlist as you read. But again, not really sure how involved Tarantino was in the picking of those tunes
I think Matt Wagner said he spent a weekend at Tarantino’s house and they cracked the plot and worked on some dialogue and stuff together.
It’s free on the kindle unlimited app, allegedly
I was so excited to get my hands on this.
It... did not live up to my expectations.
I read “Persepolis” a while back and enjoyed it and just read “Sabrina” in one two hour sitting tonight. I’ve also read “Watchmen” and that sort of thing in the past, but I’m very much interested in graphic novels which aren’t to do with superheroes and the like.
I’m happy to read classic graphic novels or anything modern or experimental, I’m just really into the form right now.
What would you recommend?
Thanks in advance!
EDIT: This is amazing! I’ve just put like 8 books on hold at my local library!
The Sandman series by Neil Gaiman is one of the best things I’ve ever read period.
If you’re into folklore, give Hellboy a chance, the art style is unique and the author (Mike Mignola) is extremely well-read and imaginative.
Edit: Frank Miller’s “Sin City” is brilliant both in terms of dialog and the art style is just stunning.
Read (and LOVED) Sandman but hadn’t considered Hellboy or Sin City. Thanks!
Did you also read Lucifer? It's the same universe (and it shares a lot of characters) as Sandman. Maybe it's because I read Lucifer first, but I actually prefer it to Sandman.
Currently reading and ADORING gaiman has never let me down and this series is no exception
It’s his Magnus Opus, but because it isn’t a book, people tend to not see it that way.
Saga is a must. I adore the series.
I am also reading The Sandman series and definitely recommend if you want something “classic” and unusual.
I second both of these. And hey I think you're me, currently reading The Sandman Series also!
Came here to say this. Best Graphic Novel I've ever read.
Fun Home by Alison Bechtel is the first graphic novel I’ve read and I LOVED it. Had seen it on Broadway, and novel enhanced my memories of it. It’s very different from what you usually see in this genre - about a girl who learns early on she’s gay, and then finds out her father is gay also - but worth reading IMHO.
Sweet! My local library has it. Should I start with Volume One?
I second this. The author tells about how he tries to get along with his dad, a concentration camp survivor, who clearly was damaged by the experience. He begins interviewing his dad about the experiences. The Nazi's are drawn as cats, and the Jews/victims as mice. Read both volumes. They are outstanding and prize winning.
There's a complete version with both volumes in one book. Read it all, it's completely worth it. And it's somewhat of a fast read since it's a graphic novel.
Mine, in order:
We3 by Grant Morrison. It's nuts in all the best ways.
The Frank Book - Jim Woodring One of my favorite things of any medium ever.
Pim and Francie: The Golden Bear Days - Al Columbia Not a traditional graphic novel but it paints such a creepy picture that I will never forget.
David Boring - Daniel Clowes I thought putting the entire 8-Ball collection might be cheating, but this one made an impact on me.
The Incal - Jodorowsky/Mobius The Fifth Element is one of my favourite movies so to discover The Incal is like finding the extended universe filled with sequels, prequels, and spin offs.
Sixteen Miles To Merricks - Barnaby Ward I don't see a lot of talk about this one, but it's just got a certain charm that I really like.
The Goon: Chinatown and the Mystery of Mr. Wicker - Eric Powell If I had to single out a certain part of The Goon I guess it would be this one but all of it is pretty great.
Jellyfist - Vasquez/Goldberg This might be a stretch to call it a GN but I love it. I love the work of Vasquez but this is just one of the funniest things I've found in the comics medium.
The Maxx - Sam Keith I love the cartoon and I was surprised to find it only scratched the surface, well worth checking out even if you've aready seen the series.
Hellboy: Right Hand of Doom - Mike Mignola This was my entry point but Strange Place was also very good. What am I saying it's all good.
Southern Bastards - Jason Aaron/Jason Latour Was a simple recommendation from a shop worker and I was surprised how good it was considering the subject matter. Just pure compelling stuff that I'm sure will be a Netflix/HBO show in the near future.
As I only really started GNs in earnest last year last year this is a great list for me to find.Have been looking to go deeper than the so called "canon" and there's a lot to be excited about here. I've just ordered The Frank Book and a couple of Eric Powell's as Chinatown seems to be o/p. Thanks for posting, can't wait to read them. Gotta love Reddit��
Edit...found some more Eric Powell!
I was going off memory with this list too so here's some more additions if you're interested. Like I said before I'm more into variety and tend steer away from super hero stuff (although like most ppl I enjoy Batman) having grown up on Tintin.
Battle Angel Alita - Yukito Kishiro I'm not big on manga but there are some examples that I think should be standard reading for general comic fans. Alita is my go to at the moment and I think it might be one of the best action comics I've come across however it exceeds in lots of other areas too.
Saga - Brian K. Vaughan/Fiona Staples Saga is probably the Breaking Bad of the comics medium. As in everyone recommends it, just solid story telling.
The Adventures Of Jimmy Corrigan - Chris Ware I would recommend Ware's work in general however they are quite intensive heavy reads. But once you finish one of his comics you come out feeling like you've experienced something very special.
Brandon Graham Not really a specific graphic novel but his work is really unique. He draws these locations that you feel like you can hangout in. Sometimes I just get lost in his work and forget about the story completely.
Blacksad - Juan Díaz Canales /Juanjo Guarnido I tend to steer away from anthropomorphic furry kind of stuff but Blacksad is a big exception. I saw it on too many best of lists and figured I should check it out. Think Zootpoia meets Sin City.
You are welcome. I would recommend reading The Goon in order though. You can skip volume 0, it's just early stuff for the hardcore fans.
EDIT: Eric Powell also released this comic GN I found called Big Man Plans which was a a good read too.
The fact that Frank is top of your list makes me want to check out every one of these. Frank is an absolute trip. You seen much Joan Cornella? Very very dark mini comic strips.
It's a fairly short book written by Morrison and artfully illustrated by Frank Quitely. It revolves around cyborg animals. It's kind of crazy but also very emotional
Ten is definitely hard for me
All-star Superman
Hickman’s avengers run
Kingdom Come
Planetary
Sinestro Corp war
Y-the last man
Black Monday Murders
Wicked and Divine
POX/HOX
Morrison’s JLA
Honorable mention: Nameless (been thinking about this book lately)
Interesting seeing DMZ in here. That was one of my first big series I dove into. Loved every second of it but I haven't thought about it much since. Should probably give it a reread
DMZ and Transmet are the two most politically relevant books I've ever read. Couldn't not have it in the top 10.
best graphic novels of all time
Key Considerations for Graphic Novels:
Cultural Impact: Look for graphic novels that have influenced the genre or popular culture significantly.
Art Style: Consider the artwork and how it complements the storytelling. Unique or innovative art can enhance the reading experience.
Storytelling: A compelling narrative, character development, and emotional depth are crucial for a memorable graphic novel.
Genre Variety: Graphic novels span various genres, from fantasy and sci-fi to memoir and historical fiction. Explore different genres to find what resonates with you.
Top Recommendations:
"Watchmen" by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons
"Maus" by Art Spiegelman
"Sandman" by Neil Gaiman
"Persepolis" by Marjane Satrapi
"Fun Home" by Alison Bechdel
"Saga" by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples
"Blankets" by Craig Thompson
Takeaway: These graphic novels are not only critically acclaimed but also offer a range of themes and styles that can appeal to different readers. Whether you're looking for deep emotional narratives or fantastical adventures, these selections are a great starting point.
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