You were taught that because it’s one of the most misunderstood rules in baseball!

Seriously though coaches who understand the rule just fine still teach don’t turn left so that the umpire doesn’t have to even think about whether you made an attempt.

I fully understand the rule and still teach this when I coach. It’s at the umpires discretion, so you shouldn’t do anything that makes it easier for the ump to call you out. I can’t imagine an ump calling a player out when being tagged if they turned right after running through first. I can imagine an ump calling out if the player turned left. Why leave it up to ump discretion when you don’t have to?

The runner gets the tie.

Dropped third strike with runners on base and various numbers of outs.

Infield fly rule.

Balks.

Obstruction and interference.

Right. The batter own the position they finish in and stand up in from the swing, nothing else.

What rule set? OBR states the runner must beat the ball to the base.

The people who argue the "he's out of the baseline" never seem to think that if a runner rounds third and runs home and is 20 feet from the foul line, he's out. It's the same logic they use, thinking the chalk line is the baseline.

I just read over the dropped third rule again. I assumed a ball that skipped in didn’t count as a dropped third, luckily it’s never really been an issue. I now refer to it as uncaught third strike which makes it easier to explain.

Balks and illegal pitches, and the difference between the two and what the penalty is... it's a hard concept for many younger umps. I usually visit with them in-between innings to help them understand.

Old umpire told me to tell a coach “last time I checked there’s no mention of a baseball bat in an anatomy book, so the hands can’t be part of the bat”

Not sure why you're being negged for admitting you didn't know the rule. So have some up-arrow.

We teach most of our younger/less athletic kids the same, "turn right so you're not called out "to start, But the more advanced runners/in the know kids get the straight/left turn pass because I don't want them by the dugout when the ball is over thrown, I want them able to get to second quicker.

Just had this argument with a coach last week. He was ADAMENT that if the ball hit the hands while holding the bat it was a foul ball not not a HBP.

(No, the kid wasn't swinging)

Sure. If they knew only one pitch would be thrown, I’m sure virtually all of them would be able to time up and hit every pitch. Dudes strike out as much from sequencing and variation as anything else.

Batting practice? Id say they make contact with every pitch yes. They may not barrel everything.

If you watch the HR derby, ifs essentially what youd see in batting practice. Very rarely do they miss, but they do pop some up and ground some balls

The hardest thing to do is hit a round ball with a round bat squarely. --Ted Williams, I think.

Yogi Berra is watching Derek Jeter take BP. Jeter swings at outside pitch, misses.

Yogi: What are you swinging at a pitch like that for?

Jeter: When you played, you swung at pitches like that all the time.

Yogi: Yeah, but I hit them.

to the point of the OP, here are some good articles on pitch count and why they are essentially BS for the most part. Some of the newest studies indicate the biggest indicator of arm injury risk is actually sleep as those who got less than 6 hours sleep the night before a game were 1.7x more likely to have an arm injury. Point is, pitch counts are not a 1 size fits all like so many seem to think.

https://floridabaseballarmory.com/arm-health-beyond-pitch-counts-and-all-the-usual-suspects/

https://floridabaseballarmory.com/how-we-individualize-workload-to-decrease-injury-risk-and-maximize-performance-gains/

https://www.drahmadsportsmedicine.com/rethinking-pitch-counts-measuring-wrong-thing/

My son played for an ex-MLB pitcher for a few years, multi time all-star, led the NL in ERA at some point, real deal guy. Career ended early to Tommy John.

He was huge on a 6-8week complete throwing shutdown at the end of the season. Basically all of July, and starting up toward the end of august. Then slowly ramping up throwing throughout September before starting games in October. They did band work every single day before practice and all kinds of arm care stuff. He was the most strict on limiting pitching of any coach we've played for. Literally would limit kids to 50-pitches per weekend for the first month or 2 of the season and I'm not sure any kid ever went above 70-80 in a weekend through 11/12U. If a kid pitched 1 inning for any amount in game 1, they weren't pitching at all in game 2. If they pitched day 1, they weren't throwing on day 2. We most definitely lost games because of it, but he simply did not care about winning. It wasn't just a thing he said like most coaches/orgs, he literally did not care as long as they competed. 'Compete' was something heard over and over.

Did it work in the long run? Hard to say. My son is 14 now, 15 next week, he had some shoulder discomfort last winter. Turns out nothing structurally was wrong and the doctor/PT pointed to the accutane he was prescribed over summer. Took us awhile to put 2 and 2 together that one of the big side effects of accutane is joint/muscle soreness. Coincidentally, as soon as the accutane was done, the soreness went away. The assistant coaches kid had a growth plate issue at the start of 13U. Of the rest of the kids from that team, I don't know of any that have had big arm problems since then. Could still be too early to tell though.

13U was the year we saw the most widespread arm injuries, not our team specifically but just in general. It was like every team locally all of a sudden had a couple kids who didn't pitch at all because of arm pain.

Kind of tangential to this, one problem I notice with the culture of youth sports today and hyper-specialization at a young age, is that many of these kids don't build any sort of basically physical skill set. They just play baseball over and over and over, and essentially fast track these over-use and muscle dominance injuries as a result.

You can call it arm care or whatever, but you've got to do something structured and aggressive to develop whole body fitness and counter-balance the over-development that comes with sport specialization. My youngest pitches, and I have him row every workout. Build his back and legs, balances out the push with pull, increases his stamina -- that's the kinda stuff you have to do to stay healthy.

And one thing I noticed around high level athletes is that a whole lot more work goes into body maintenance and recovery than most novice athletes have any clue about.

I’d like to hear more about your reservations with “shut down completely”. My son is still fairly young (10u) but I have been shutting him down after spring and fall ball for at least a month at the advice of his coach and so he can focus on other sports.

As for our high school teams as a whole we have a throwing program in off season that is of course optional through a local pitching coach( basically teaches good warm up routines /works mechanics, then gradually goes into bullpens)

When we get into official season our pitching coach keeps a pretty nice weekly schedule for every pitcher, has set bullpen days for each guy and rest/long toss days. All of us coaches go over weekly how kids are doing. Starters are basically already in a rotation with bullpens so that when season starts there is no questions really who I’m starting or even who’s coming in relief/second relief. Pitch counts have become such a minimal focus after being so used to reporting numbers to state and getting back a spreadsheet of rest days/pitch limits for each kid, the numbers are obviously a part of game but like you said . It’s just a number. The arm health going into and during season is the most important part.

Once you get older some kids will just have off days and get yanked, also may have a kid who you clearly can tell is fighting some aches and pains early, maybe he didn’t warm up great. I’m gonna yank them . Having a kid absolutely dealing coming up on pitch count happens too, but it’s just part of the game. It’s what relievers are for. Always have that “what’s next” in your head as a coach.

Good. You don't need to stand there for 30 seconds between pitches. This season has proven that.

These rules are way too popular among fans to roll back. Players may not like it, but rolling them back as the audience reaches its highest levels would be really dumb.

It’s needed THE MOST in postseason.

I will never miss those Yankees-Red Sox 4.5 hour games, it was so ridiculous.

Awesome. The pitch clock has been a great rule change.

If I had to guess their rationale, I think the hope is the pitch count is the primary limiting factor and they should have no trouble getting through 40 pitches within the time limit if they're pitching at a reasonable pace. We've seen pitchers cycling through pitches pretty quickly the last couple years. The time limit is just to control the broadcast and make sure no one is waiting a ridiculous amount of time like 10 seconds to throw the pitch.

I'd rather them add a minute or two to the timer and keep 40 pitches so I could actually see where the ball goes before they throw another

A pitch only counts if there is a swing I believe.

So the time limit ensures guys aren’t taking 20 pitches to get the one they want

COMPETITION FLOW

• 1ST ROUND

• 8 Hitters (top 4 advance). Tie is broken by the longest HR in the first round.

SEMI-FINALS

• Bracket Style: 3 vs 2, 4 vs 1

• Based on 1st Round HR totals

FINAL

• Top 2 Face Off

RULES

• 1ST ROUND AND SEMI-FINALS

• 3 minute round. 40 pitches. One timeout

• 3 bonus outs. (every swing is a HR or an out)

• A 425' HR in the bonus period earns a 4th bonus out

FINALS

• 2 minute round. 27 pitches. One timeout

• Same bonus rules apply

It's 3 outs though, I think it's a nice compromise between the two styles of doing it.

Could tweak the number of pitches or time in following years. Or number of outs etc.

They really don’t like the swing fest for some reason. That’s the best part to me. The elite hitters showing off their power and stamina to mash as many balls as possible in the window.

If you’ll recall, the original rules for the change up format was that you’re not supposed to pitch or swing until the previous ball landed.

The only change I really thought that was needed was getting away from matchups. Yeah it makes it exciting but it’s unnecessary and punitive when a guy hits 23 and is eliminated but a guy with 8 advances.

Hard disagree. When it was out-limited guys would take a ton of pitches which is boring as shit. What’s fun is watching Harper swing out of his mind a fast as he can for 2 minutes.

I wonder if it's pitchers that tend to want more time, batters, or both?

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but some of my favorite moments in the playoffs is in a close game the tension of the time in between pitches everybody in the stadium holding their breath waiting to erupt.

I know it won’t be that different and it’s the right decision to keep the rules, just a lil sad.

Ron Darling on Mets broadcasts frequently discusses the pitch com issue delays when they arise and I like his viewpoint. If you have pitch com problems - that’s on you. It’s your organizations responsibility to ensure your stuff is working and if it’s not, tell your catcher to throw down the signs like they did for a century before and let’s play the game.

I would like to see no equipment changes on pitchcom until mid inning unless it counts as a mound visit. If your headset breaks start throwing down signs.

100%. Players are the reason we needed the pitch clock, which has been the best thing for MLB in decades, in the first place. They've proven they can't be trusted to maintain an entertaining pace of play, so they shouldn't get a say.

I'll say I understand people who just don't want baseball to change because they're maybe a bit older and don't like change.

But people trying to argue that we need 2 minutes between pitches to "build tension" are out of their minds.

Check swing is at least subjective so you can blame the ump. Whoever the player is to blow it will want to run for the hills.

Thank god for the pitch clock

2 reasons changing them for the postseason was a terrible idea.

1. Playoff games notoriously take way too long. Getting World Series games in particular to conclude earlier means that more people, kids specifically, will be able to watch the entirety of your best games as a sport.

2. Saying a rule is only for the regular season makes me think it shouldn't exist at all. The regular season matters and shouldn't be treated as some glorified exhibition with goofy rules, then we get the serious rules for the playoffs.

You used to be able to half swing and that still be considered a checked swing. Put the brakes on a curve in the dirt and even if your barrel pointed at the pitcher it wasn't a swing until you looked like you offered at the pitch to hit it.

Now the rule in practice has turned into something about breaking some plane.

Definitely a factor in the rise of Ks and nobody ever going to hit .400 again.

Let’s also not discount the fact that over the course of an inning, a ball can get scuffed or cut in ways that affect the way it flies when it’s thrown. Having a hard and fast rule that you can’t change the ball until it’s out of play wouldn’t account for that.

I've always liked "If the bat is moving forward when the pitch crosses the plate, that's a swing"

...and if you get beaned on ball four, you should be awarded 2nd base

Interesting take. The reason why baseballs started being replaced so frequently (though probably not as frequently as now) was to avoid discoloration in the aftermath of Ray Chapman being killed by a hit-by-pitch in 1920. Balls being kept in play for several batters (and sometimes innings at a time) led to them becoming discolored and hard to see. It is believed that was a contributing factor to Chapman not being able to see the pitch and get out of the way

I’d go further and say that if a starting pitcher is taken out before giving up any hits, he automatically goes on the IL. Because either he’s injured or you make him go until he loses the no-hitter.

NCAA Baseball actually does, if the bat crosses the plane of the front of your front hip it’s a swing.  No reason the majors couldn’t also do this.

Baseball was better when starters were expected to go at least 7 innings & throw 100+ pitches. It was all possible too when they weren’t throwing so damn hard. I’d rather watch prime Maddux outsmart a lineup with location & movement to create outs in different ways than a flamethrower just hope his stuff stays in the strikezone.

Yeah, they did it in the Arizona Fall League and now are trying it in a larger sample at the Low-A Florida State League (most of these are played in Spring Training facilities for major league clubs, if I remember right, so they were always going to get the best tracking available.)

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/mlb-to-test-checked-swing-challenges-in-the-florida-state-league/

MLB has chosen to err way in favor of the batter, though, setting the distinction at 45 degrees, rather than something like going past the front of home plate. If the batter swings any less than aligning with the first (or third) base line, it's not counted. As much as I would like to see rules that benefit batters more than pitchers, this doesn't quite feel like the right cutoff point.

Now my hot take! The strike zone should be a living, breathing thing based on what the ump is calling that day. Hitters and pitchers need to adjust to what the ump calls, a pitcher can work the corners to expand the zone throughout the game. That was what made Maddux such a genius, he slowly expanded the zone throughout the game!

Umping is an artform and should not be treated as a science.

Until 1887, you weren’t automatically awarded first base for getting hit by a pitch. The rules didn’t state what should happen, other than a rule calling it a dead ball and no advance, and likely the umpire would call it a ball.

Therefore, because there was no chance of advancing, the pitchers would often throw at the batter if a runner began to steal after he started his windup, and because the batter wouldn’t get first base, the batter would try to avoid getting hit to give the runner a chance to steal!

In 1876, the rule was changed that a pitch that hit a batter was to be called a ball, and in 1878, pitchers who (in the opinion of the umpire) hit a batter intentionally was to be fined.

In 1884, the American Association began awarding first base to the batter if he was “solidly hit” by a pitched ball, and if he was (in the opinion of the umpire) unable to get out of the way of it. If the batter, in the opinion of the umpire, “intentionally permits himself to be so hit”, it should just be called a ball.

The National League adopted the rule in 1887.

>Manfred describes himself as “uncomfortable” restricting how teams deploy their pitchers during games. 

Same guy who was in charge when they changed the rule so relievers had to face 3 batters?

Its because velocity and maximum effort are required now. Pitchers like Greg Maddox who beat you with control will never get a sniff at the show again.

I would love that and always ask myself why you wouldn’t play with 7 closers. Is there a reason teams don’t do that?

I really wish you were right.. so many teams will see great numbers in the minors but keep guys down because of low spin rate / velo etc. I would so much prefer to see actual PITCHERS in a game full of throwers

To be fair, when he was with the Nationals he would actively yell at his managers if they tried pulling him out before he was ready to be done

If that was true I'd have been in the MLB! I played ball with a few MLBers in high school. Problem is at 5'6" and only throwing curve, changeups, and I had a knuckleball developing my senior year not a single person came to see me. I pitched absolutely lights out my Junior year, was one of the best pitchers on my team. Guy on our team was a bum but was 6'3" and threw 92 his Sophomore year and had scouts following him home. My freshman year there was a top scout who threw in the 90's everyone talked about. He threw a no hitter his rookie season then disappeared. All he had was velocity.

> Nowadays, coaches teach their pitchers to throw as hard as they can and pitch through the pain.

I've put two kids through travel (1 plays college ball now.) I've never had a coach with this philosophy.

Producing healthy, fundamentally sound athletes, that can play at the next level, is the objective of any decent program.

Yeah my HS coach was big on babying the pitchers arms so that if they had skill they could go play minor or college ball. Or at worst not need Tommy John before they go be a pencil pusher or just study in college

He'd tell pitchers not to play travel ball because they'd blow their arms out

You have to throw hard and sharp to get strikeouts. Strikeouts gets paid and strikeouts gets outs. Until there’s a more effective way of throwing softer and getting outs pitching is not changing as a whole.

What’s the MLB version of moving the 3pt line back?

That’s clear. That’s why this article is arguing that we should change the rules to force players to be in longer and thus lead to a velocity decrease rather than letting teams pull starters early and cycle through high-speed relievers. That way there’s not a choice about sitting high velocity all the time.

Drastic rule changes are the only thing that will reverse this trend. You can pick any great historical pitcher you can think, go to their splits page on BBRef and see they all get worse third time through the line up. Bob Gibson during the year of the pitcher in 1968? Offense got better the third time. Maddux when he was winning 4 straight Cy Young Awards with sub 100 pitch complete games? Offense got better third time through the order. Nolan Ryan was the only outlier I could find, but that's pretty much true of nearly every pitching statistic you look up.

There will never be a competitive advantage to lengthening your starters. Teams can't be trusted to do it on their own because no team is willingly and consciously going to take a step back from their peers. Players can't be trusted to do it because they see guys who got TJ get 9 figure contracts so why not risk it? Change the rules, or live with the current results

Everyone is chasing extreme spin rate and velocity with every single pitch. That's how you get the contract as a pitcher. I don't know if there's anything that can incentivize pitchers from going 100% on every single pitch. Especially at the little league, High School, and College levels, where a lot of the damage starts.

I can give you an example, my son is a catcher on his 14u travel team, I coach his rec ball team. I have another kid that plays travel with him on the same rec ball team. He threw 98 pitches Saturday morning. We play tonight. There’s no communication between travel and rec, so I could run that kid on the mound tonight. Coaches that don’t know or don’t care would absolutely use their best pitcher on 1 day of rest. It’s kinda sad what youth baseball has turned into. All of this is anecdotal and maybe other leagues communicate, but I don’t believe that to be the case.

But the third time through the order penalty for starting pitchers still exists even when they get an extra day of rest. It's still usually the better move to go to the bullpen once a starter as turned over a lineup twice, so I don't think extra rest will actually result in starters being pushed deeper in games.

What the extra rest would help with is allowing starters to go max effort more often, which increases effectiveness but also increases wear and tear on the arm.

That's basically been the default strategy the last 5-10 years. Have your starters give everything they have and a little more for 4-6 innings (typically how long it takes to get through a line up twice and start the third trip through) then turn it over to the relievers.

But it turns out giving it everything you have and a little more for 5 innings is significantly worse for your elbow than pacing yourself to get through 8 or 9